tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post6548637674238525611..comments2023-12-12T08:22:49.015-07:00Comments on navel gazing at its finest: Faithless, Take TwoTheOneTrueSuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04756132396031048647noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-52264455987223986302010-04-29T00:26:01.145-06:002010-04-29T00:26:01.145-06:00I loved reading these two posts. Honestly, I wish ...I loved reading these two posts. Honestly, I wish more people doubted, or at least spoke them out loud. I just see it as a step along the way. If you never question, how can you ever have REAL faith? Oh, and I have a whole lot more to say about Laman and Lemuel. But it will have to wait because I should be planning a birthday party that is happening in like 30 hours or so (not good at math.) Nothing is ready and it might be rainy or snowy and my basement looks like a shed right now, and the twins invited 38 kids. So this is my escape from reality. I hopped over and read these posts a few weeks ago and couldn't even take time to respond, I was probably also avoiding something urgent like taking my kids to school and I thought, I will have to get back and respond someday. I keep missing the meetings! Maybe next time.Shelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12851446861098955538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-67357679023202878672010-04-25T17:13:10.444-06:002010-04-25T17:13:10.444-06:00I think you are so stinking amazing- putting the r...I think you are so stinking amazing- putting the rest of us and our mediocrity to shame, that this one thing is your hard thing. It wouldn't be fair if you had it all. Kind of like Job- God finally said 'ok ok you can test him- but he rocks so I'm not worried'- same thing for you I think.Jesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04232281608898358053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-53186775431304126132010-04-23T21:33:58.015-06:002010-04-23T21:33:58.015-06:00its like you are reading the deep depths of my min...its like you are reading the deep depths of my mind and putting it on paper. please post part 3 soon.....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-72210581934249231912010-04-22T12:59:37.468-06:002010-04-22T12:59:37.468-06:00It is comforting to know that others have similiar...It is comforting to know that others have similiar concerns. I struggle to know why my child has to suffer and struggle after being born healthy. After his stroke my faith was so strong and complete and it seems that each month that passes since his stroke I have struggled more and more. Thank you for sharing your story I can't wait to read the rest.Erinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05626741788079929590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-30935573748215768722010-04-20T08:07:04.260-06:002010-04-20T08:07:04.260-06:00P.S. I want to be your friend. Can I be on your b...P.S. I want to be your friend. Can I be on your blogroll?<br /><br />K, that was hard for me, thanks.<br /><br />GwenGwenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07498684532364491174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-18638098185023457802010-04-20T08:04:00.928-06:002010-04-20T08:04:00.928-06:00After this post- I'm officially addicted to yo...After this post- I'm officially addicted to your blog.Gwenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07498684532364491174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-77190953628042693732010-04-17T19:46:23.466-06:002010-04-17T19:46:23.466-06:00I waited a loonnnggg time before coming back to re...I waited a loonnnggg time before coming back to read the next installment of this story AND I STILL am hanging on the edge of the cliff. No problem. Take your time.<br /><br />I am so...filled (not sure of the word I need here) by your post and by the comments. Really stirs my heart. All of it. What a lovely community you have gathered here. I look forward to more of this association.Kathy Vhttp://myonemorething.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-2365831091730452462010-04-16T23:15:57.838-06:002010-04-16T23:15:57.838-06:00I enjoyed reading this because of its honesty and ...I enjoyed reading this because of its honesty and also because it causes me to think of interesting questions like: <br />How important is choice in faith or belief? <br />Are we blessed by what we choose or what we think? Which influences the other the most (or is most effective?) <br />How specific do we feel the Spirit? <br />Can we be lead by the Spirit without realizing it? <br />Why does this happen? <br />Why don't we always hear a voice or feel something profound? <br />Is this process part of working out our salvation? <br />Is the "working it out" considering all sides, even the possibilities we don't want to consider?<br />Has anyone (besides Christ) ever not had to lay one thing or another to the side to "resolve" later? <br />What is this process like for others? For me?<br /><br />Thought-provoking post!Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01246546379295509018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-90762597919127884952010-04-16T11:04:19.105-06:002010-04-16T11:04:19.105-06:00I was going to wait until you had finished your st...I was going to wait until you had finished your story to comment - but you apparently have something else to do in you life other than blogging:) <br />I had to give the lesson this month for VT and was trying to prepare about personal revelation. All I could think of was your blog and how if perhaps you had finished your story - I would know better what to say to my visitees. I too struggle with this. I really struggle when I have to teach my children about it because I'm just not sure. And then I blame myself because my kids struggle - like maybe if I was stronger they could be too. Oh well - I guess that's what parenting is. Constantly questioning if your doing a good enough job. <br />Anyway - I love your blog and am anxiously awaiting a conclusion to your story. <br />And if my vote counts - please tell the story of the blessing.Tsosie and Peterson Bunchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08784891178239237164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-8368167503064944302010-04-13T23:37:19.835-06:002010-04-13T23:37:19.835-06:00I love this. It is everything I have felt. You...I love this. It is everything I have felt. You're very brave for sharing. Thank you.Sharonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01608163000837487983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-51811652372735041622010-04-13T15:30:58.236-06:002010-04-13T15:30:58.236-06:00All I can say is...
...you are a brave, brave, BR...All I can say is...<br /><br />...you are a brave, brave, BRAVE woman to post this. Braver than me, that's for sure.<br /><br />You're not alone in your faith struggles.GreenJellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10008711974632671478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-27526552103708820882010-04-13T10:26:13.857-06:002010-04-13T10:26:13.857-06:00Still here. Still reading. Still nothing profoun...Still here. Still reading. Still nothing profound to share except...<br /><br />don't give up...CountessLauriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09789441493168935934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-74261219122494806302010-04-12T22:24:32.240-06:002010-04-12T22:24:32.240-06:00Part 2 sections b, c, d, and portions of f sound l...Part 2 sections b, c, d, and portions of f sound like they could have been written by my oldest daughter.Jamihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11049138813340800745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-161354160762771352010-04-12T16:44:36.099-06:002010-04-12T16:44:36.099-06:00I'm scared to read the comments on these posts...I'm scared to read the comments on these posts. I have a headache and I don't want to wince that much.<br /><br />As always, I love the honesty and rawness of you. My personal belief is that true conversion passes through stages of doubt and questioning. That the ole refiner's fire isn't meant to be easy and painless and that some of those "strong" testimonies out there are just ones that haven't been tried yet. Also, that we are so dang individual and it really wearies me how so many expect everyone to perceive things in exactly the same way they do or else they label it WRONG. I've done that. I've been that person. But I love too many people who have no faith to see things that way anymore.<br /><br />I have no advice. I've struggled too. Despite being raised in the church and having nearly always "acted the part", faith is something I've always had to fight for. I've seen how it seems to come easily to others and in a way I envy them that, but in another way I'm glad my path is as rocky as it is. <br /><br />I think many people's are...but few have the courage to admit it. Thanks for these posts, Sue. I look forward to seeing where your journey is carrying you.Kimberly Vanderhorsthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01653757517652257445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-23624259413587081602010-04-12T16:10:24.340-06:002010-04-12T16:10:24.340-06:00It's not weird to question your belief or feel...It's not weird to question your belief or feel like you're flailing in uncertainty. This is when you have to search and ponder and pray HARD. <br /><br />I've gone through a stage like this and it was very difficult. <br /><br />Here are blog posts that I wrote on the topic of belief in an effort to preach to myself. Maybe they'll help.<br /><br />http://scriptoriumblogorium.blogspot.com/search/label/beliefMichaela Stephenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04163084369311708249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-44419741921724653572010-04-12T11:11:54.583-06:002010-04-12T11:11:54.583-06:00With the nephi/l+l story:
I used to read it and t...With the nephi/l+l story:<br /><br />I used to read it and think, "wow they both had doubts, they both wondered if Dad was crazy, but nephi followed dad and they didn't. What's the difference between me and l+l?" A few verses later it had my answer, though. Nephi had doubts just like his brothers. But the difference is, he prayed and asked God if what his Dad said was true, and received an answer. The other two didn't bother.<br /><br />So I am no scriptorian, but that's what I got out of it. And I think it's fine to question things. God made we humans curious beings. I think there are answers out there.Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03651101307212666896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-92122747840184605922010-04-12T09:53:40.851-06:002010-04-12T09:53:40.851-06:00So I'll just share this wee little bit of wisd...So I'll just share this wee little bit of wisdom that came from a child.(Of course. They are the only wise ones left.) <br /><br />I am a convert who joined the church about 11 years ago. I too stuggle with my questions and would get frustrated when my husband would answer "Why do you ask those questions? You'll never have to worry about that..." or some other non-answer.<br /><br />About a month ago My mother, (who is not LDS) my two boys and I went to Utah to visit a friend. While we were there we did the whole downtown church tours stuff. <br /><br />While we were touring the conference center the guide was asking questions about the scriptures. My 7-year old (who is a little Horshack-ish {Remember 'Welcome Back Kotter'?}) would shout out the "RIGHT" answer every time. The little missionary would beam at him and praise him and he just glowed under all the praise. She'd try to engage my <br />9-year old in conversation but he just kind of shrugged and rolled his eyes and would mumble "I don't know."<br /><br />Finally, the missionary patted the 7-year old on the head and said "Well I'm glad to see SOMEONE is paying attention in Primary."<br /><br />My 9-year old turned around and looked at her and said, "I'd heard that Thomas S. Monson got kicked out of Primary as a young boy and now he's the prophet. Just because my testimony is quiet doesn't mean I'm bad or wrong. It just means I'm quiet."<br /><br />I was very proud of him for realizing what we all (including that little old lady missionary) forget. We are all different, we ALL have questions and we all have struggles. Some people just pretend better than most. The rest of us live in reality.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-79350042279046511992010-04-11T22:01:20.131-06:002010-04-11T22:01:20.131-06:00Is it wrong to question everything? I don't t...Is it wrong to question everything? I don't think so. Is it good to choose what looks good, what proves itself? Yeah. I think it is.<br /><br />And I've written too much, as usual.Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02040714440875408436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-77622042347723884552010-04-11T22:00:03.479-06:002010-04-11T22:00:03.479-06:00There are so few of us, by the way, in the same wa...There are so few of us, by the way, in the same way that there is just a tiny bit of yeast put into a huge amount of dough. God knew what he was doing - he chose a time just when the industrial revolution was in swing, when mass communication was actually becoming possible - at the beginning of the shrinking of the planet. He chose the people who belonged to a country that made public education mandatory, so that the children of it would grow into their intelligent power and be able to speak with voices that criss-cross the planet. A rich country that would allow the yeast to take hold, just as sugar does when you are making bread, so that what these people had learned, and practiced - as it cost them everything they had, their comfort, their homes, their very lives -would make a story that would slowly creep out and fill the whole world.<br /><br />As it has done. As it is doing.<br /><br />Here I will stop and tell you that my daughter dumped her fiance when he finally instructed her that there was no such thing as evolution and that it was an evil concept and she wasn't to believe in it. Pfff. Like there's a Mormon ANYWHERE who knows how the Lord created the earth - what tools and processes he used. Brigham Young said he had no idea how old the world was, surrounded as he was on one side by the religious folks who insisted it was only 6000 years old, and on the other by the scientists he respected deeply, insisting that the number of years was in the millions. <br /><br />What's more, he said - HE DIDN'T CARE.<br /><br />I think the unnamed boy maybe meant something like that. Or not. Maybe he was just avoiding the question. But certainly, we are instructed to seek out of the best books - and to question and to wonder. But only after we take soup to the sick gal.<br /><br />I think we just don't understand the point. And I don't think we understand the love that God has for us. Those words come out so easily that we don't even think about what they mean. But the LOVE - (and what does that mean really??? - Affection? Concern? Does he treasure us, each of us? Really? Is it measured in the effort he invests in teaching each one of us carefully how to be happy - even while we're kicking and screaming and cramming our hands over our ears?) that the God of the universe really feels for us. For you. For me.Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02040714440875408436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-75887849461338040802010-04-11T21:49:59.468-06:002010-04-11T21:49:59.468-06:00But here is a thing: his faith was in his asking. ...But here is a thing: his faith was in his asking. Belief is in the head. Yeah - you are willing to accept something as true or probably true. Hope is sticking your toe in. Faith is actually defined in action. Not in really, really, really believing really, really hard.<br /><br />Nephi asked God. That was his faith. And because it suited God that Nephi should see these things, he was shown. I don't think it was like the Brother of Jared, whose heart was so pure that seeing the finger of God was an utterly natural (if shocking) extension of his total acceptance of God's reality. I don't think Nephi was like that. But perhaps his respect for his father brought him close to that point. At any rate, obviously, Nephi was going to be a huge element in the success of this effort, this plan to provide a corroborating witness to a mass of people thousands of years later.<br /><br />Your faith is not in some strong feeling. It's in what you do. Faith, as Joseph said, is a principle of action. It is the process between the belief in your head, and the desire in your heart - and the reaching out your hand to do something. Have you continued on your journey? However desperately? Every step of it has been a testimony of faith. Praying is an act of faith - talking to the sky, the empty air, as if you believe that someone is listening? Whether you do it because you believe you should, or because you have hope that someone will hear, or because you really believe somebody gives a dang - it is faith that puts you on your knees and opens your mouth to speak. <br /><br />It is faith that has you going to take dinner to a sick woman's family. Yes, there is that element of doing it so people will see that you are good. But do you see that you know the taking is a GOOD thing, and that you desire to be associated with good? So taking a chance, and investing time and effort to do the good thing is still faith, no matter how alloyed it may be with self-consiousness.<br /><br />I know that alloy. There is something inside me that settles down with satisfaction - after I have put my whole heart into leading a hymn in sac. meeting, or being the voice of the congregation in the opening prayer - and it says, "DANG, I'm good." And another part of me that rises in horror and slaps me in the face and says, "You just ruined it, you idiot." And then turns Godwards and says, "I am so sorry that I'm such a jerk."<br /><br />But isn't that what life is all about? The fight between the natural man and the spirit? Between our weakness and our good intentions?Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02040714440875408436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-22306559951589581722010-04-11T21:49:44.099-06:002010-04-11T21:49:44.099-06:00What lovely friends you have, to write these thing...What lovely friends you have, to write these things to you. Some of these comments contain such tender and earnest insights. All are loving. You have earned this, writing the things you have.<br /><br />I would like to disagree respectfully about a few points. I don't believe that L&L just didn't have enough faith. I believe it was because, rather than faith, their minds were full of themselves. They believed earnestly and passionately in what they wanted. They say, "We could have been at home, enjoying our possessions. We could have been HAPPY."<br /><br />Their hearts were anchored firmly in having things, hanging with their peeps, enjoying social savvy. This is what defined them - the structure of the society they loved. Enough faith? Maybe not enough huevos to defy their father, the man who had always controlled the purse strings.<br /><br />Nephi - his heart was grounded somewhere else. It was firmly connected to his family. Thus, his father was important to him. And if his father, who he respected - not for the money or the house or the social position he was worth - said he had talked to God, then Nephi had to defy all of his ideas about the limits of reality. Lehi was a solid man, respected by the best men in the community. You don't make the kind of brass he had by being a crazy person.<br /><br />So Nephi went, wondering. And pretty much challenged the Lord - "If you said this to my father, then show me, too." Because he was ready to believe it if he saw it. Not as a sign. But because he needed to validate the words of his father, before he could throw his whole heart into cooperation and suspend that disbelief. And he was shown -Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02040714440875408436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-19901406434677936432010-04-11T17:32:58.935-06:002010-04-11T17:32:58.935-06:00Wonderful story, beautifully written. I love your ...Wonderful story, beautifully written. I love your honesty, you allow others to speak their doubts and weakness in your strength to tell the truth.Johttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15530972001172936718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-5794713707765583552010-04-11T12:29:17.692-06:002010-04-11T12:29:17.692-06:00Let's see if I can explain this right...
I he...Let's see if I can explain this right...<br /><br />I heard a really interesting lesson in church a few weeks ago about spiritual gifts. They talked about how we're all given certain gifts--discernment, tongues, healing, a really strong testimony. That's a great one, and one that if you're not given at birth, you'll struggle with, like you are. I am grateful because I have that one. But then they talked about what if you have not been given a certain gift? Are you just out of luck? And there was a scripture (I think it was 1 Corinthians 12) that said that some gifts are given at birth but to all people those gifts are available through hard work. Verse 31 says "seek ernestly the best gifts." I think seek ernestly = hard work.<br /><br />And I thought about how my mom has this great gift of the desire and abiility to really ponder the Gospel and seek to understand everything. I totally don't have that. I hear the endowment ceremony and I don't care to understand it. I read the scriptures and I have no desire to interpret them. I have no drive to delve into the mysteries of God. This doesn't affect my testimony or my desire to be righteous at all, so I figured it was no loss. And my mom said the same thing that scripture said, only she added that it is not just our right to gain those gifts, but also our obligation to try to gain all the gifts of God. Part of me doesn't even want to. I barely even want to know the questions, let alone want to work hard to get the answers. But it kind of changed my attitude to think that we're commanded to seek out the best gifts. Ernestly even! I guess I've been a slacker.<br /><br />So I guess what I'm saying is, there is nothing wrong with you that you don't innately know everything, have tons of faith, have a super strong testimony in all things. That isn't your particular in-born gift. But that gift IS available to you with hard work. And, I'm sure, patience. As much as learning to play the violin, or to sing well, or to skateboard, or whatever requires those hard work and patience. We can be mad that we weren't born being super good at those things like some people were. Or we can accept that, for us, we will have to work hard to gain those talents. How many hours of playing the violin would it take me to get really good? One? Five? 20? Probably hundreds. So if I look at my spiritual gifts the same way, maybe I will have to spend hundreds of hours before I really get good at the gifts I lack.<br /><br />Sorry that was so long. I hope I explained it okay.Omgirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17193367587292656589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-923152932515746832010-04-11T10:21:42.243-06:002010-04-11T10:21:42.243-06:00I think there are many more like you, and sometime...I think there are many more like you, and sometimes me, than otherwise. That is why they have to keep repeating the whole 'endure to the end' thing.Nora Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10507586370996781147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18394742.post-19620102553732193232010-04-10T23:45:04.265-06:002010-04-10T23:45:04.265-06:00You know, you mentioned in Part 1 that Courtney (T...You know, you mentioned in Part 1 that Courtney (THE lovely Courtney whom we all LOVE, of course) had more guts than you do to post topics about the Gospel on her blog and open them up to comments. But may I say with all due respect to the both of you, 'cause I love ya both, I think you are the braver for being willing to write about struggling with/losing your faith as a lifer Mormon. As you've experienced in the examples you've laid out, it's quite difficult to be truly honest about such a thing for many reasons, but certainly for fear of the reaction for sure.<br /><br />Another thing is that I can't tell you how much I see myself if what you're saying. The only difference being that I was not born and bred Mormon, I was a convert a few years back and what a rough few years it's been, let me tell ya! I am at the point of having not attended for a year and a half and am shooing away the missionaries from my doorstep when the new arrivals come knocking. I am at a loss and it has given me such tribulation and heartache that I've just decided to stop. Stop attending, stop reading scripture, and I really am trying my best to stop thinking about it, but of course, I find myself reading LDS blogs daily and watching Gen. Con. regardless. It's so tough.<br /><br />So, here's to us and to all who struggle with their faith, or lack thereof. Tis a mighty burden we grapple with, one I believe only we can really understand. I do hope you come to peace, whatever that looks like for you.<br /><br />Love to you from a kindred spirit.Sundance Kidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01273701165325584800noreply@blogger.com